Nickelodeon’s early days were ‘loose and crazy,’ says Rocko’s Modern Life creator

Nickelodeon’s constant programming shifts, from the home of game shows and sketch comedies, to a cartoon innovator, to a teen-star factory and beyond, have been essential to the kids’ cable channel throughout its lifespan. And Joe Murray, creator of classic Nicktoon Rocko’s Modern Life, was there during one of the most interesting steps in the network’s evolution.

It’s easier than ever to compare “Nickelodeon then” and “Nickelodeon now,” in part thanks to the newly released complete-series DVD box set of Rocko’s Modern Life. (An upcoming TV movie based on the series will also certainly help.) More than 25 years after the surreal animated sitcom premiered, Murray looked back at his work to tell Polygon about this “different,” “loose” time — when adult humor and innuendos could slip into cartoons like Rocko with ease, and execs gave the OK with their backs turned.

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Polygon: There’s a surprising level of “adult” jokes in Rocko. [Examples: a fast-food chain named “Chokey Chicken”; a gag where Rocko is a sex line operator; an episode about assumed infidelity, starring Rocko and his next-door neighbor’s wife.] How did you get those on a children-oriented cable channel like Nickelodeon?

Joe Murray: I had done some independent films, which is what made Nick interested in talking to me into developing a series, and they just said, “Do what you do.” So I did a pilot that was doing what I do.

It was a different time then, looking at Nickelodeon — they were just getting on the map. Ren and Stimpy actually premiered while I was working on the pilot. My stuff was so weird, but then Ren and Stimpy came out, and I was like, “Oh, this might work.” Everything was different [then], and Nickelodeon was kind of going for that they wanted to break out and break the mold of what was going on. There were so many rules that had come down onto kids TV that it was kind of our time to break out of it.

A lot of these cartoons were very violent, and nobody ever said anything about the violence. But Rocko was never violent, and the things that we did were hopefully going over kids’ heads. We wanted the parents and the kids to be able to enjoy things together. We did things that we thought were funny, and we tried to be discreet about it. It wasn’t something that was blatant — I wanted people to enjoy it on different levels, and that’s what it sounds like what happened. Audiences got older, and they started to enjoy it on a college level, and as an adult on that level.

The show was about someone coming of age. Rocko was meant to be in his early 20s. I just kept saying to Nickelodeon, “It’s modern life.”

Was it ever a struggle with the network to keep these in, or was the network on board with that sort of humor — especially considering how much fellow Nicktoon Ren and Stimpy pushed the envelope at the same time?

There were elements of Ren and Stimpy that were different from what we were doing. Everything was very story-driven, so we didn’t just throw things out there just for the sake of shock.

There were [some] things — there was a note that we couldn’t say “hell,” so we kind of made a joke about it. We crossed out “hell” and put in “heck.” There were some things [Nickelodeon had problems with], mostly satanic jokes that we weren’t supposed to do. We had a hard time with the devil episode, with Peaches, and we made it really ridiculous — with feathers on his head.

[The show] was doing great in the ratings, and we were getting huge household numbers. Nickelodeon was trying to find its own place that was a little different from any other children’s network, and our thing was, we don’t talk down to kids. We treat kids as the intelligent beings that they are. But we also know that there are gonna be aspects of the show that they’re not gonna understand. So Nickelodeon did really, at the beginning — they didn’t come down on us very much about it. They saw the ratings and the breakout that was happening.

I’m sad that the moments that we “got away with” get so much attention. The L.A. Times did a story [on an episode] we did about adoption, where Heffer finds out that he was adopted, and they called it a high-water mark for kids, and it dealt with situations that were kind of groundbreaking at the time. We had a lot of episodes that were really intelligent writing, and we were all just trying to do something that was different. But having innuendos and stuff gets us the most attention.

That’s definitely true — episodes like “Zanzibar,” about recycling and capitalism, still play. But what kinds of things did Nickelodeon offer notes on? Rocko seemed to get away with a lot, but what about those other adult stories about consumerism, etc.?

I had a good relationship with [then-senior vice president of programming] Herb Scannell. They expressed their appreciation of the show and supported what they were doing with it. I’m working on a PBS show now — I created a show that I really care about, and it’s saying a lot of things that are really relevant, but to a younger audience. My stance in entertainment, in doing something that says something, hasn’t changed.

I really wanted to say something. There was a lot of satire in Rocko — “Conglom-o, we own you!” The motto of Conglom-O [in an episode set in the future] is, “We still own you,” and nobody’s ever done anything about it. And the recycle show is needed more now than ever. We were able to attack things that weren’t normally done in kids TV, and for adults too. I think a lot of the satire, things we were saying about lots of different aspects of modern life. was appreciated.

It wasn’t really until the corporate machine started building up with Nickelodeon — at the time, it was kind of a different mentality of, suddenly we have to be earning the right kind of money with the right kind of sponsors. It started to become that we’re not hitting the 6- to- 11-year-olds as strong as we like, and I was like, “Maybe it’s time to rest up. We’ve done a lot of good stuff here, and maybe we shouldn’t mess with it.” The household numbers were still really good.

What seemed to be the priorities of the channel creatively back then, at such an early stage of its life making cartoons? Did Rocko meet Nickelodeon’s apparent needs and requirements?

Other shows were trying to acclimate to changing needs. Things were changing, as it always does. These networks keep changing and changing, and especially in this new climate of streaming, now you get a 10-episode order, and that’s about it. 52 episodes was the [syndication] number. It’s kind of a thing of the past. It’s always changing. Executives change, things change, the mandate of the corporation always changes. It has to be.

We snuck in there when things were still kinda loose and crazy — I call it the “Wild West” sometimes, because there was a lot of people that we were getting now starting to work in television. There were stories of some execs at Nickelodeon who didn’t see [the show] until it got on the air. It was kind of a crazy time, so it was perfect for what we did.

Were you close with other creators of Nicktoons, like Ren and Stimpy, Rugrats and Doug, and able to share notes or commiserate? Or were most shows siloed off into their own teams?

Creators come from all different areas nowadays. At the beginning, we were all kind of from an animation background, so we all kind of knew each other anyway. John Dilworth [who made Cartoon Network’s Courage the Cowardly Dog] ... a lot of creators who were coming up through the ranks, who were just finally getting to say something and do something in television, since it was kind of closed off. I don’t think any of us saw ourselves in television.

We had things to say in animation, and we were doing it in independent film. And then TV said, “Hey, we want that stuff here,” so we made that leap. [...] It’s all just one big thing — these networks are just like a stream. It’s never the same one twice.

You can’t hold any grudges or hold a personality to a network. I kind of left with a little bit of a bad feeling when I left Rocko, but now I love lots of people at Nickelodeon. They’re trying to find their way in the streaming world. It’s just trying to get something out there, and have something of quality and good energy. We’re all kind of in the same boat, as far as how we approach something.

I always tell people not to approach a network and say, “This is what I should create: something for this network.” It’s always about creating something for yourself, and see which network would like it.